Clint explains quite well the notion of hell in light of Jesus' teaching of kingdom and both Clint and Michelle touch on the notion of election/free will which I want to get into a bit here.
The problem of election in relation to this question derives mostly from Romans 9, as noted by Michelle below. Here are some of the highlights:
"though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of thim who calls— she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'...So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."
Ok, a few things to note here about the context of this passage: It was written to mostly Gentile Christians in Rome who were confused as to why they were enjoying the benefits of the Jewish God while many Jews in Rome had rejected Jesus as Messiah - conflict between these two groups in Rome emerged as a result. So one reason why Paul writes to the Gentile Christian is to create humility and fear in the hearts of Christians which is why he concludes in 11:20 "So do not become proud, but fear."
A primary reason why Paul uses election language in this passage is to eliminate any notion of pride in the hearts of Christians - they are Christians not because they were smart enough to figure it out when many others were not, rather they were Christians because of God's mercy. In this way we see that Paul is not showing the arbitrary nature by which God sends some to hell and others not but rather is highlighting the basis upon which someone becomes a child of God: God's grace and mercy.
But what do we do with God's "hardening": isn't that proof that "God creates people just to sent them to hell?" Well, take a closer look at the passage and ask the question who benefited from God hardening Pharaoh's heart? Answer: all the nations of the earth. Likewise if you continue reading this passage Paul will explain that God has also "hardened" Israel's heart; again, ask yourself the question who benefits from God hardening Israel' heart? Answer: all the nations of the earth (e.g. Gentiles). Moreover, unlike Pharaoh, Israel's hardening is only "partial" (11:25 ) which is why Paul ends this section with "For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all."
So there is a forward propulsion to "election" and "hardening" that is counterintuitive: yes, God hardens hearts but he does so for the benefit of the many.
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ReplyDeleteGod does indeed create people just to send them to hell. The response above does not seem to deny that fact but just suggests that it's not arbitrary nor immoral. So is "kill one to save many" the moral code of our creator?
ReplyDeleteIf we're going to talk about that code, I'll start by saying that I think that goodness is evident in this moral code when the ONE chooses to be sacrificed for the MANY (e.g. Jesus). However, it's ugly when the ONE is selected apart from his/her freedom, which seems to be the case in Romans 9.
I'm going to write more on this when I have more time, but just real quick...
ReplyDeleteBrian, one may be selected, but it is not apart from his/her freedom. We have free will, and every time we exercise it we choose evil; we go against God in all aspects. All God is saying here, is that he didn't offer his grace, which Pharaoh (and anybody else on the planet, for that matter) did not deserve in the first place. Grace is a gift from God, undeserved by mankind. So really, God shows people (those who will be saved) evil by letting folks go their own way... which is about as evil as it gets. The only time good, and purity, and holiness ever occur is when God intervenes. Straight up, God just didn't intervene in the heart of Pharaoh.
More to come...
I would deny that God creates anyone to send them to hell. He creates all people in hopes of having a freely chosen love relationship with them. But some will reject him. A careful reading of Romans 9 shows that there is no predestination to damnation here, despite one tradition of interpreting it that way. There is predestination to temporal matters for Old Testament characters and there is predestination to salvation for Christian believers, but even the latter is based on foreknowledge (Romans 8:29). The "vessels prepared for destruction" are further described in 2 Timothy 2:20-21 where it becomes clear that they do not have to remain in that state if they turn to Christ. C. E. B. Cranfield's International Critical Commentary on Romans articulates all this brilliantly.
ReplyDeleteGreat discussion guys.....keep it coming!
ReplyDeleteIn my post above I didn't make it clear enough that "hardening" and "election" as Paul describes it in Romans 9-11 is not JUST good for the "many" but also for those who are the "hardened", which is the counterintuitive part. That Israel was hardened was good for the Gentiles BUT the result was that Israel herself would desire what the Gentiles enjoyed in Christ and, as a result, embrace the Gospel. This is the missional forward propulsion of Paul's understanding of election - election and hardening work together "SO THAT he may have mercy on ALL" (Rom. 11:32).
Michelle - It sounds like you think that we would we all go to hell if left to go our own way (the way that is as evil as it gets)? If so, then how is God's action of letting someone go their own way any different than sending them to hell?
ReplyDeleteCraig - Good to meet you this evening my friend. Thanks for putting yourself in front of everyone and inspiring the dialogue!! Regarding this discussion, are you suggesting that our relationship with God is entirely our own free choice such that even if we are created for destruction (hell) our choice still remains for whether or not we live out this created purpose?
Dave – Counterintuitive indeed brother. Holy cow! So let me get this straight. God is basically creating an environment for hardened people to become jealous of other folks that love Christ, right? The whole point of this jealousy is to bring the hardened folks into a relationship with God. I like it...and I like it mucho when I combine that idea with Craig's dose of 2 Timothy.
I want to believe your idea that the end goal of all this hardening is to bring the very folks that are hardened closer to God, but man, I have no idea how I'm supposed to reconcile that idea when I actually read the words in Romans 9. This chapter just seems to scream "God's mercy, whimsical though it may be, falls wherever it pleases. Who are you to question His authority?" Romans 9 just doesn't seem to communicate the idea that God has the desire to provide everyone with his mercy. Please help me see this more clearly.
(FYI: I really dig the fact that you folks are engaging in this dialogue and some of you reading along. Thank you. With all we discuss here, I want to communicate a deep appreciation for any opportunity to think along side of all of you. I hope that all of these words direction us towards what we need the most).
Thanks, Brian. And I ditto your FYI. I think for you the key for reading Romans 9 is understanding Paul's audience: arrogant Christians thumbing their noses at Jews who just don't "get it". Paul's election language here is intended to make arrogant and self-righteous Christians humble. I am not a Christian because I am smart and "they" are dumb. Our status as a Children of God is rooted completely in God's goodness to us, not in our being deserving of God's goodness. When we get what Paul is saying we worship Him with a grateful heart because of the vastness of his compassion on us who don't deserve it but receive it has a gift.
ReplyDeleteAs it concerns non-Christians (in the case of Romans 9, Jews who have not received Jesus as Messiah), Paul makes it clear that they are hardened only "IF they continue in unbelief" (Rom. 11:23). Paul's stance is a hopeful one for "God has the power to graft then in again" (Rom. 11:23).