Below is a portion of an email I received after a Question Group.
I think it would be a great comfort to believe. My problem is that I am just not convinced. It still seems like it could be a fable … a set of stories that people have told themselves to feel safe, protected … to give their lives meaning. All religions feel that way to me right now. It just seems so very human (and therefore, understandable, but not necessarily correct) to create the idea of an all-powerful being who is watching over us. I told someone recently that I would describe myself as an agnostic with atheistic, Christian, and Buddhist leanings. Sounds like I’m trying to be clever, but that is really where I am right now!
That is why I came to listen to your group. That is why I am reading books by people who did not believe, and then became believers. I want to know how they did it. That is why I read “The Language of God” by Francis Collins. But he didn’t convince me. At some point, it was about faith, which to me means, we can’t quite take you the rest of the way with logic or proof, so we’re going to ask you to leap. Make sense?
First of all, thanks for this email and "yes" you make sense:) This expresses well what a lot of people struggle with as they try to understand what life with God is about. There can be moments on your journey that make it seem like "all the religions are the same"and hence, like you said, thoroughly manmade. And it makes senses that total doubt would follow based on this conclusion. However, as you think about Christianity in particular I would encourage you to consider two things: first, consider your own spiritual quest. Why is it that you are even asking these questions, reading books like "Language of God"? What is it that compelled you to come to Question Group? You mentioned that you are interested in learning about people who came to believe later in life and I would like for you to read this. It is written by a A N Wilson - famous atheist and running buddy Richard Dawkins - who came to realize, about this time last year in fact, that atheism could not explain the mystery of life; it could not explain the mystical reality of his own soul and his soul's quest to meet its creator. Give it a read and let me know what you think.
Second, consider Jesus. He is unlike other religious leaders in multiple ways. One is that he encourages interested onlookers to take a close look at his life and 'count the cost' of what it would mean to follow him. His life is rooted in history (which separates him from fables) and can be studied. In fact, this Wednesday at Question Group we will look at all the non-Christian evidence of Jesus and his resurrection. He is also different because he does not require us to have "great" faith - rather he shows himself to be totally faithful (often in areas where we are not faithful). Jesus says that the smallest amount of faith in a strong object of faith (himself) is what really counts as opposed to having "great" faith in something that will ultimately let you down. Does this make sense?
Curious to see what comments you guys have out there...
I was raised in the church but when I turned 18 I left because of all the hypocrisy there, the meanness, the superficiality of it all. I lived as an atheist/agnostic for the next 15 years until I was literally forced by circumstances, not my need, into a church. My life durng those 15 years was pretty chaotic and self-destructive. I'd given all that up by the time I reached the church. What happened next was really inexplicable except in terms of some kind of providential "force" (that's all I can think of to call it) that surrounded and enveloped me with acceptance and the faithful love of a community of strangers. It took quite awhile for the God thing to take root, but when it did I wound up in the ministry of the church offering the same hope I'd received to others also in need of it. It hasn't changed one bit since then, God has been as faithful as God promised, and it's now 35 years later. I'm retired from the ministry, but not retired from God. Can't imagine how I'd do that anyway. God hasn't let me go.
ReplyDeleteI have a few comments regarding the portion of your email that Dave added previously. First you mention that you want to believe “a set of stories that people have told themselves to feel safe, protected...to give their lives meaning.” You feel this way with all religions, and I can understand where you are coming from. Because of the distant time and location in which the bible was written, it seems that these stories could have been simply made up. I would like to say that although possible, I find that the evidence against them simply being made up are quite strong.
ReplyDeleteWhile visiting family in Israel, I have had the chance to visit many places described in the Bible, and can attest to the fact that this history can be seen right in front of you. I was able to walk from the Mount of Olives (where Jesus would preach), through the garden of Gethsemane (where Jesus was arrested), and along the Via Dolorosa in the Old City of Jerusalem (where Jesus bore the cross in route to his crucifixion). The reality of these stories can be seen directly, and not only in Jerusalem but also throughout the land of Israel. These stories are most certainly not fairy-tales passed down through generations, but stories based in an often threatening and treacherous reality.
Despite your perception of God as an all-powerful being watching over us, it is through His son Jesus that salvation is given, this is the essence of Christianity. The stories of Jesus’ arrest, torture, and crucifixion are anything but those that make us feel safe and protected. Rather, it is through his torture and death that our sins are forgiven on the cross. This does not at all describe an all-powerful being watching over us, but instead a God willing to reduce himself to our level in order to fulfill his promise.
As far as learning from other believers like Francis Collins, it seems like you are trying to use their logic and reasoning to achieve your own belief. I don’t know that there is such a methodology to find God in your own life. Instead he will speak to your heart in a way that is unique to you, just as he spoke to Francis Collins in a way that the science he studied could move his heart.
I think that your point of making a “leap of faith” is exactly on point. It takes such leaps of faith for us to make progress in areas that are completely unknown to us. This is not specific to the realm of spiritual belief, but also occurs in science.
As much as a scientist will resist the need to make a leap of faith, much of our current understanding comes from scientists doing just that. All of the game-changing scientific discoveries took such a leap. As examples you could use Columbus sailing across the Atlantic toward the edge of the Earth, Galileo standing up to the church’s view of a geocentric universe, or modern physicists and biologists making conjectures about the earliest formation of the universe or early life on Earth. In order for scientists to discover these things, they must make leaps of faith that will move their understanding forward. Once a possibility of a new way forward is seen, then reason and logic step in to establish the necessary proofs.
I think that in your search for God you must look to reason and logic, but you also must look to your heart. As a scientist myself, I see the complexity and harmony of nature as a true display of God’s power and magnificence. As far as finding proof for God in science, I think that will only come when God has given us the tools to do so, in effect revealing himself to us. Until that day, there will be much conjecture about God’s presence or absence in the universe. Since he has yet to reveal that to us conclusively, I am left with looking within my own heart to have faith in God. As for me; the history, the science, and most importantly my heart tell me that I can rationally believe and trust in God. I hope that you can look within your own heart to find that for yourself as well.
Thanks, Jared and Judith, for your thoughtful comments on this.
ReplyDeleteI'd echo many of the above sentiments. Books like my Historical Reliability of the Gospels or Kenneth Kitchen's On the Reliability of the Old Testament can amass a lot of evidence to show that the biblical stories contain real people who did real things at real places in ways that no other religions can come close to compiling. But religion is not mathematics. There are no Q.E.D.'s. However much we would want to insist that the leap of faith is not an absurd leap but one in sync with the direction the evidence is pushing us, it is ultimately a leap. But I also agree with the point about why are humans even asking these questions. There is not the slightest shred of evidence from all the zoological studies that have been done that any other form of living being has any "God-consciousness." Even if humans made it all up, what makes them so unique in the tree of life that made them make it up?
ReplyDeleteTo the original author of this post: It would be refreshing if everyone could respond to the question, "Where am I right now?" with as much honesty as you put forth in this posting. Thank you. I don't have a response to teach you anything, but just to share in the lunacy.
ReplyDeleteBeliefs that feed the lunacy that I can have a chat with God, man, those are the ones that come hard. When I mountain bike, I often see a beautiful scene that makes me want to say thanks to something. I always desire communication of some sort with the author of life's goodies. Yet, I find the BELIEF that communication with God exists to be much less interesting than actually EXPERIENCING it.
Realizing that last statement is very new and very liberating as well as very different from how I usually live. It's probably not far from being crazy to let myself experience something that I don't know exists, eh? =] So lock me up, that's where I'm at.
My first gateway drug to actually letting this experience unfold was quite honestly Morlan's explanation of the reliability of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. He gave a similar presentation at the question group last week. If you haven't had the pleasure, just be warned, it may screw with your head.
The second thing that pulled me into the lunacy was experiencing Christians in a small group setting. Seriously, it's strange, but good. I love it.
I haven't purchased "I heart Jesus" bumper stickers just yet, but I might be putting in an order soon. I'll let ya know if you're interested. Mucho gusto anonymous poster. I like the way you think.
I like what you wrote about the difference between belief and experience, Brian. A family friend once told me his view on life: that the one thing wrong with the world was belief. "If we could just eliminate belief then we would be a much happier planet."
ReplyDeleteI'm actually with John Mayer on this one: Everyone believes. We hold beliefs about our experiences, mostly. I can't really think of a belief that I hold which did not begin in some sense as an experience. Occasionally, I may adopt a temporary belief which is only held in order to get me through some difficult experience, but the experience itself is that which either reinforces or rejects the belief after the fact.
A little soul-searching for me has revealed that my entire life is constructed of these beliefs, and not all of them stem from a single foundation either (I'm actually extremely thankful for this little epistemological gem). As I examine my beliefs, I often come to the question of "how does this belief function in my life? Is it working or failing?"
Reading autobiographies of those who have struggled with similar questions is, I think, a good idea when confronted with these questions. I still get really geeked out by books which deal with questions concerning faith (my favorite is The Brothers Karamazov). It always helps to find some new experience in the real world as well which may help move beyond the current beliefs which are in conflict. When I get unsettled however, as Brian mentioned, finding a few lunatics who are willing to hang out with me can be even more enlightening than a good book.
Good stuff here.
I am firm believer in that there is faith required to believe in God and without faith it is impossible to please him, but at the same time I think that we have been given something with logic that does not require walking blindly. So here are the three small steps that I feel like I take to believe in Christ and honestly to me they don't seem much bigger steps than the step of faith that the other person is taking. Let me know what you think.
ReplyDeleteBelief in God vs. Atheism
The Steps of Faith:
I believe in an external agency outside of space and time that put into place all order and complexity.
or
I believe in an eternal universe that came about without external agency, all order and complexity came about by chance.
Theology and Deism
The Steps of Faith:
I believe that the God who created the universe did so for a reason, and that he has decided to allow us to interact and know him.
or
I believe that the God who created the universe stands at a distance and watches over us but has not decided to interact with us or let us know him.
I think this one is the hardest to choose on because looking at our world with its many problems it is logical to say that God has decided to not interact with us and give us peace.
Judeo-Christianity and Other Faiths
I believe that if God interacts with us he will do so in a way that is most historically accurate with many pointing to the same God.
or
I believe that God will interact with us through one person (Siddhartha Gautma, Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Krishna) and the most historical literature about God is not the most correct.
Again, let me know what you think. Let me know if anyway I have been shortsighted or if this is unclear.